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Forum DOFUS _ Character Classes _ Sadida Aggressive Bramble overhaul needed!
Posted by: Baxxa 30 Jun 2009, 07:39
With all the recent changes to character classes, spells, health, etc. in the last few major releases, I for one feel that there is still one important point that needs to be addressed for the Sadida class. I appreciate some of the other changes (especially to Inflatable).
Aggressive Brambles
Gained at level 60 by a Sadida and is supposedly the BIG attack spell. Well with this spell being 5AP at lvl #5, only one cast per target and damage wildly ranging from 6 - 50 it is just too unreliable an attack for the Sadida. ALmost all sadida's I know end up going to using a staff in place of their spells.
Compare this spell to:
- The Iop spell StrengthStorm which does 36 - 40 damage at only 3AP (2 less than Aggro Bramble) and can be cast three (3) times on a single target. Massively overpowered copared to any other class in attacks.
I almost always fall back on regular Bramble for most of my attacks due to the huge damage range of Aggro Bramble. But even that spell is limited to two (2) attacks per target and does very low damage 10 - 17 at level #5 (even only 11 - 18 at lvl #6) it makes for a weak challenge when fighting an Iop in PvP.
As a level 143 Sadida, it is ridiculous for me to hit a 65 on target with Aggro Bramble due to a low roll.
While I appreciate that Iops' have a place in a group, due to their ability to jump, use Iop's wrath, and Sword of Iop they are so far ahead of a STR Sadida it is unfair in any PvP situation. I can easily be beat by a Iop who is 30 or more levels lower than me.
Proposal
Make some modifications to the Sadida Aggressive Bramble Spell:
1) Change it to allow for two casts per target per turn (and three at lvl #6)
2) Reduce the AP at lvl #5 to 4AP
3) Change the huge lvl #1-#5 damage range from current: 6 - 30, 6-35, 6-40, 6-45, and 6-50 to a new damage range more befitting a high level spell: 6 - 30, 11 - 35, 16 - 40, 21 - 40, 26 - 45, 31 - 50.
As a final note I would love to see some more high level STR-based staff's available for a Sadida to use to put out CC attack's on par with the great number of Intel-based swords available to other classes.
Posted by: smoeltje 30 Jun 2009, 08:27
i agree with that
Posted by: herothingy 30 Jun 2009, 10:33
that's a really nice fantasy, but i can't see that happening...in the near future anyway..
Posted by: poepy-dofu 30 Jun 2009, 11:00
iop has str storm as basically its only ranged attack
sadida have bramble masive range, manifold bramble
a lot of summonings etc too
If sadida agressive bramble gets any stronger sadidas are going to become massively overpowered like sacriers are nowadays
Posted by: eotkodekff 30 Jun 2009, 11:21
Bramble was already nerfed way back when from 3 casts per target per turn to 2 casts. If i remember correctly its damage was reduced too, as it was too overpowered.
You cant compare SS and AB they are not similar in any way, most balanced comparison would be enutrofs Slaughtering Shovel. Those changes which you proposed are way overpowered, have you ever considered getting AB 1/2? Or the impact those changed would make to those who have AB at 1/2 ch rate? Seems like no. If you seriously lose to an iop 30 lvls under you, you are doing something completely wrong.
Its not the class, nor the spell, its the players fault. Study your class better.
Posted by: bigbaddud 30 Jun 2009, 20:14
I have to agree with eotkodekff. AB does not need a buff. SS and AB have very little in common. SS has an odd range and is an element that can not be boosted well with stat points. (5 points for 1 Intel from 81 and on) AB has better range and is an element that can be boosted well with stats.
When comparing AB to Slaughtering Shovel (now how would you abreviate that?), AB does more damage. Also, Sadidas have better caps for str than Enus do for water.
Posted by: touchof 30 Jun 2009, 20:51
Lots of classes use weapons as their main attacks. Not just sadidas. And aggressive kicks ass, playing a 165 sadida I have it level 6. Totally worth it. Plus the set piece which lets you use it 2x per turn is nice too. However, I do agree with you, sadida on iop is never balanced. This is common throughout the game however, as we see;
Iop>Sadida
Sacrier>Iop
Sram>Sacrier
Eca>Sram
...
and so it continues.
Posted by: Xylas 30 Jun 2009, 20:58
If you look at other 5ap attacks, AB is far too random to make it worth using.
Compare it to Lethal Attack, and the only advantage it has is range, which is offset by the low damage rolls that often seem to pop up.
LA has more casts per target per turn, much better average damage, and far far better crit damage.
Compare it to SoI and I dont think it has any advantages over that at all.
It's only when you hit L160 to get it to L6 AND have the class ring that AB is really worth using at all, and even then you're relying on the 1/2 crits actually giving you a crit hit, as well as missing out on other stats/bonuses by having to wear the class ring. It's a desperation/"I have 4-5ap left and cant hit anything else with Bramble" spell at the moment.
When you're left mainly using a spell gained at L1 as a primary attack spell (a spell that has been nerfed a fair amount as well) or forced to go into CC to do damage - Sadi's are a ranged damage class, dont forget - then it show's there's a problem with other attack spells.
How many other classes use a L1 spell as their primary attack at L150+?
Posted by: touchof 30 Jun 2009, 21:00
It's not a desperation spell at all, leastways I have never found it so.
Posted by: Xylas 30 Jun 2009, 22:29
I'm a L16X Sadi, and it's not something I'd rely on, certainly before getting the class ring (and as I said there are other things you miss out by wearing that).
Granted it's a lot better at L6 than L5 mainly due to the 4ap cost instead of 5ap (small difference, but every AP counts) but it's still nowhere near as reliable as Bramble, which is the main problem.
When you can use 6ap and do 250-400 damage over 2 attacks (still pretty pathetic, but it is ranged), or use 4ap to do 60-500, I know what I'd put my money on.
It doesnt need massive changes, even changing it to 2 casts a target per turn at L5 and L6 would help, and would bring it slightly more in line with spells like LA and SoI.
On a slightly less serious note, you could remove the LoS requirement from AB (as the brambles come up through the ground) which would make it a lot more useful in a wider variety of situations and give it a more consistent edge over Bramble. It would also offset the random and often low damage.
Before you say anything about removing the LoS, I'd like you to consider Playful Claw, another 5ap spell (at L5) very similar to AB but with far more advantages and far more consistent damage.
Posted by: ChoKuRei 1 Jul 2009, 00:24
Aggressive is doing 40% more damage per AP on average which is reasonable.
Sadis need +10% damage on all spells and the dolls need min 80HP at epic level (you shouldn't be able to Leek them to death).
I'm not a fan of the EQ/PW combo but apart from that sadida design is nice.
Posted by: smoeltje 1 Jul 2009, 06:55
what is 1/2 and what is AB
lol im still a newbie but i have a sadida 2 and i want to know what ppl are taking about 
Posted by: Greeeeeen 1 Jul 2009, 07:13
1/2 is the critical hit rate and AB is Agressive Brambles your lvl 60 spell.
IDC about AG i find Earlikk and Pink Claw to be a far better use of AP despite the 10% dmg rdc.
however, i do find the limitations on bramble to be a bit stupid. 18 base dmg at lvl 6? come on thats pathetic. The two casts on a single target per turn is a nuiscance but makes think a little more strategically.
I completely endorse this thread. For once players (majority sadis), have gotten together and done something unprecedented in these days of late. Asking for a buff. Thats right, not a nerf a buff. Something everyone could use a bit of these days. ........Except Iops they dont need one.
Posted by: Murlough 1 Jul 2009, 07:17
Beat meh =P
Posted by: smoeltje 1 Jul 2009, 07:31
thx for the answer greeeeeeeeen and what server do you play
i need to talk you ingame about advice about sadida
Posted by: Phatballerz 1 Jul 2009, 07:39
IDC about AG i find Earlikk and Pink Claw to be a far better use of AP despite the 10% dmg rdc.
however, i do find the limitations on bramble to be a bit stupid. 18 base dmg at lvl 6? come on thats pathetic. The two casts on a single target per turn is a nuiscance but makes think a little more strategically.
I completely endorse this thread. For once players (majority sadis), have gotten together and done something unprecedented in these days of late. Asking for a buff. Thats right, not a nerf a buff. Something everyone could use a bit of these days. ........Except Iops they dont need one.
60
Posted by: smoeltje 1 Jul 2009, 07:53
lol yeah lvl 60
Posted by: eotkodekff 1 Jul 2009, 09:20
When comparing AB to Slaughtering Shovel (now how would you abreviate that?), AB does more damage. Also, Sadidas have better caps for str than Enus do for water.
In this post SS = Slaughtering Shovel
Both have boostable range, AB is linear SS is not. Sadis have better str caps than enus have cha caps, also AB is a lvl 60 spell and SS a 70 lvl spell. Seeing what else enus can do IMO a bit lower damage as seen below is okay. Even though sadis can do some of the same things as enus but with cooldowns.
AB
6 Damage: 6~65 Damage: 65 4 1-7 1/45 1/100
SS
6 Damage: 9~58 Damage: 59 5 1-7 1/50 1/100
Bolded part is the greatest advantage between SS and AB. Epic/end game lvl enus can hit 650's to 800's with SS ch, sadis around the same, perhaps a bit more.
Posted by: Baxxa 2 Jul 2009, 20:42
Well I expected to hear some folks, especially Iop's, disagree with this post - even when comparing three identical casts of Aggressive Brambles to THree casts of StrengthStorm at lvl 150+ doing on average about 300 - 400 more damage per turn for the Iop than the Sadida.
There are a lot of other discussions on the need to nerf Iop's or why Iop's are overpowered, that was not the purpose of my post. I only used the Iop StrengStorm spell as an example of the imbalance at higher levels with Sadida (but the same holds true comparing a Sadida to many of the classes).
I am simply looking to come up with some fairly simple adjustments to the Aggro Bramble spell to make the Sadida useful at higher levels. Would love to see better Bramble and Mani-Bramble, but again, the focus of this post was on Aggro Brambles.
Let's here some more of your comments.
-- Baxa
Posted by: Mentor-III 2 Jul 2009, 23:24
Sadida's arent really meant to be the primary damage dealers. I definitely like aggro brambles on my sadida, and use it a lot.
Getting it to 1/2 critical is super easy with the sadida class ring, which also gives a non-linear wild grasses, which is very nice. I tend to play in groups with at least one AP giver too, so I can do bramble+bramble+aggro, which does maybe 350-450 damage on average if agro doesnt crit and up to 650 if it does. Im certainly no Iop, but it isnt bad for its range. Im level 12x so i have a long ways to go, and 4 ap sure is a nice improvement once i get there.
Posted by: -Travis-- 3 Jul 2009, 02:46
My guildmates AB is 1/2, he crits bout 1k~.
Nuff Said
*Travis
Posted by: ChoKuRei 3 Jul 2009, 02:51
Saying your spell is weaker than the most stupidly overpowered damage spell in the game is a somewhat redundant argument.
The comparison to Slaughtering Shovel is much more illuminating and doesn't make AB look particularly underpowered. But sadis definitely need something which is why I said a 10% overall buff to ranged damage and 80 HP dolls.
Posted by: eotkodekff 3 Jul 2009, 09:52
Nuff Said
*Travis
On 0% res id love to see that.
Posted by: dsslkdolsosi 3 Jul 2009, 12:22
Brokle + tons of greed on pounch ? Whatever this isnt ONLY one sadida spell so dont cry 
Posted by: Phatballerz 3 Jul 2009, 21:57
You wouldnt need brokle since a crit simply maxes it out already. All i can say is, that guy must've had a lot of strength, damage%
1400
Posted by: Ardulk 3 Jul 2009, 23:35
Lol...
I don't see the point on your complaining, agressive bramble with 1/2ch is a very powerfull spell, if it were 4ap and 2 casts per turn, sadidas would be able to do 1200+ damage per turn, and I don't see how could this be "fair" with other classes.
Im a panda, currently at level 178, and I have to sweat to kill some sadidas with 50~30 levels lower than me, because of that damn mp rape dolls.
Yeah, I don't think sadidas need any overhaul, sadidas are already quite powerfull.
It would be the same as asking for pandatak to be 36-50dmg for 4ap...
I don't think any class apart from cras are needing a massive overhaul, maybe one or two useless spells or so, but a lot of classes needs a big nerf:
Srams - Invisibility isn't fair in anyway, lethal traps every turn weren't needed in any way, poison is way annoying with invisible.
Iops - They've "nerfed" wrath, great, they're wrathing more than ever, the only change is now battle last 4 turns instead of 1 (with a 12ap iop 
) and Jump is a incredible overpowered move spell... Oh, and str. storm needs a nerf too. Make it 4ap till level 5 and 3ap at level 6. It would be really nice...
Eni chance - Yeah, they got a HUGE overpowered spell, c'mon the damage is incredible large, it's steal and 4ap... Okay... Sooo fair :3
Sacriers - C'mon, this new update made them from "class very useful in MVP and okay in pvp" to "class useful in MVP and PVP MACHINE MF FROM HELL" it's very hard to beat a sacrier nowadays...
Yeah, I think it's this :3
Posted by: Alyss-Sin 3 Jul 2009, 23:46
I rarely use my Aggro Bramble because it's so unreliable, I am looking into the Ultra powerful though is it any good PvM? because I'm anti-PvP
Posted by: Garciatantonio 4 Jul 2009, 01:04
Aggressive Brambles
Gained at level 60 by a Sadida and is supposedly the BIG attack spell. Well with this spell being 5AP at lvl #5, only one cast per target and damage wildly ranging from 6 - 50 it is just too unreliable an attack for the Sadida. ALmost all sadida's I know end up going to using a staff in place of their spells.
Compare this spell to:
- The Iop spell StrengthStorm which does 36 - 40 damage at only 3AP (2 less than Aggro Bramble) and can be cast three (3) times on a single target. Massively overpowered copared to any other class in attacks.
I almost always fall back on regular Bramble for most of my attacks due to the huge damage range of Aggro Bramble. But even that spell is limited to two (2) attacks per target and does very low damage 10 - 17 at level #5 (even only 11 - 18 at lvl #6) it makes for a weak challenge when fighting an Iop in PvP.
As a level 143 Sadida, it is ridiculous for me to hit a 65 on target with Aggro Bramble due to a low roll.
While I appreciate that Iops' have a place in a group, due to their ability to jump, use Iop's wrath, and Sword of Iop they are so far ahead of a STR Sadida it is unfair in any PvP situation. I can easily be beat by a Iop who is 30 or more levels lower than me.
Proposal
Make some modifications to the Sadida Aggressive Bramble Spell:
1) Change it to allow for two casts per target per turn (and three at lvl #6)
2) Reduce the AP at lvl #5 to 4AP
3) Change the huge lvl #1-#5 damage range from current: 6 - 30, 6-35, 6-40, 6-45, and 6-50 to a new damage range more befitting a high level spell: 6 - 30, 11 - 35, 16 - 40, 21 - 40, 26 - 45, 31 - 50.
As a final note I would love to see some more high level STR-based staff's available for a Sadida to use to put out CC attack's on par with the great number of Intel-based swords available to other classes.
You cant compare SS and AB they are not similar in any way, most balanced comparison would be enutrofs Slaughtering Shovel. Those changes which you proposed are way overpowered, have you ever considered getting AB 1/2? Or the impact those changed would make to those who have AB at 1/2 ch rate? Seems like no. If you seriously lose to an iop 30 lvls under you, you are doing something completely wrong.
Its not the class, nor the spell, its the players fault. Study your class better.
If your problem is just losing to a Iop that is about 30 lvl lower than u... Improve yourself, bring your A game.
Tips: Even if the Iop has Jump plus SS, the sadida still has a decent MP rape and Bramble has more range than SS. Even if you still lose some HP you can take advantage of the Inflatable and The Block. If the MP rape isnt enough for you, use the Ultra Powerfull. In theory, you CAN and WILL defeat an Int Iop. I know I do (Sadida lvl 130 something, Rushu). IF there is ANYTHING to be complained about the sadida class it probably would be the MP rape that most of the time just isnt enough.
In case what you wanted was just to get Aggro Bramble to deal more damage... Remember that a class does not revolve around 2/3 spells but around many, many more... Study yourself, study your opponent.
P.S.: I dont use my staff much (Earlik Branch) neither do I use the skill. All spells baby.
Posted by: Mentor-III 4 Jul 2009, 01:09
Ultra Powerful is excellent in pvp, but sadly sees very little use in pvm despite its value. It makes fights take a lot longer than they normally would, and tends to get complaints from the others in the group. Its not hard to get a group together that can easily do anything without it, and thats what people prefer.
I use it a lot to solo dungeons that i could normally never even almost solo, or to do a dungeon that would normally require say five 120+ characters with just me and a few other under 100 players. For the tougher stuff though, wild grasses and soothing are enough.
Posted by: Ardulk 4 Jul 2009, 01:25
I use it a lot to solo dungeons that i could normally never even almost solo, or to do a dungeon that would normally require say five 120+ characters with just me and a few other under 100 players. For the tougher stuff though, wild grasses and soothing are enough.
Ultra Powerfull saved us once on Skeunk
!!!It's really useful to rape the sadidetes' mp
Posted by: Alyss-Sin 4 Jul 2009, 01:43
I use it a lot to solo dungeons that i could normally never even almost solo, or to do a dungeon that would normally require say five 120+ characters with just me and a few other under 100 players. For the tougher stuff though, wild grasses and soothing are enough.
That's good to know that I don't have to drop points on it. As for Aggressive Bramble, It'd be nice to see it boosted up to something a little more reliable but I'll take what I've got with this class it seems like a fairly decent yet balanced and fair class to play.
Posted by: Mentor-III 4 Jul 2009, 02:15
I would still max it honestly, its an excellent spell for when everything goes wrong in a dungeon (a painful crit failure, painful crit hit by the foe, or some player disconnecting or doing something stupid) accidental big aggroes of mobs, and for when you want to do a dungeon run that you might lose, most dungeon runs i see people do are done by people twice as leveled as neccesary for it, which takes away a lot of the fun. I love taking a small group to a dungeon that is no challenge normally, and seeing if i can do it. Great for perc fights, too.
Aggro brambles is worth maxing too, most times it does about what two brambles would do, which is useful in pvm as youll not always be able to bramble + bramble + manifold when you need to do damage. It can be a life saver for sure. It also helps if you get +2 ap from eni, xelor, eca or osa. Bramble + bramble + aggressive brambles is pretty nice damage on a single target.
Posted by: Greeeeeen 4 Jul 2009, 02:24
like i said Aggro Brambles im not a fan i just use it when im desperate seeing as how im not 150 yet for the class ring an on Solar with the cruddy markets im going to have to craft it myself.
i just want Brambles updated and my INflatable's Ai updated.
HE gives MP to my tree summons, blocks my LoS, and charges at the enemies
Posted by: Alyss-Sin 4 Jul 2009, 02:46
Well I may end up leveling it then, but later in between some of my maxing spells I'm currently only level 130 so there's still time.
Posted by: Greeeeeen 4 Jul 2009, 03:07
one more for moo boots
Posted by: Alyss-Sin 4 Jul 2009, 03:21
yeah I'm grinding like nobodies business to hit 143 I've got my set sitting on my mount just waiting. ^.^ after that its 169 for killarity sword
in fact my guild is actually taking bets on how long it'll take me I say 3 weeks tops. Someone said a week and at the rate I'm going they may be right haha
Posted by: eotkodekff 4 Jul 2009, 09:33
My point was you'd need 1300 str and some +dmg to deal 1k with AB on a 0% res, which is impossible. (400 base, 900 from set, havent seen this yet and most likely never will)
Posted by: ZeusOTC 4 Jul 2009, 17:33
sadida have bramble masive range, manifold bramble
a lot of summonings etc too
If sadida agressive bramble gets any stronger sadidas are going to become massively overpowered like sacriers are nowadays
quoted for best logic.
Posted by: Higure 5 Jul 2009, 16:04
I don't agree with you.
Even that int iops can cast 3 times SS, they can't boost the range, and a thinking person would not stay too close of them. In the other side, sadidas at lvl 60 have at least 10 range with brambles, dolls for +MP and Mp rape.
Your ideia is a joke, have you realized how overpowered would sadida be compared to enus? Then other people would beg for Slau Shovel become 31-46 and so on.
Posted by: phantomwizdark 5 Jul 2009, 16:58
This idea will never happen. Think it through. Sadidas will just start scrolling AGI and more plus range (maybe plus range)
2 attacks per target? 1 - 7 line of sight range already. Then there's the " Hai Ring " which adds critical hits to it. Could you imagine the kind of damage a Sadida would due in one turn with a 1/2 crit rate? I already see Sadidas lvl 150+ Critical hitting with it all the time doing 400+ damage with it every turn due to the ring. Aggressive Brambles is very balanced if you ask me. It doesn't need a buff nor a nerf.
Posted by: Skywahor 5 Jul 2009, 18:18
Im sadi myself and as much as i'd love a change of agressive Brmble i think you choose the sadi char cause its NOT the easy pown way(sacs,iops and osa lately) "support" sadi is easy top make but a rank 10 pvp sadi is a whole other story... Im 101 atm and pvp is hard work! i hope this changes a bit at higher lvl but idk. So agresive twice on 1 person in pvp is nothing more than resonable if u ask me. Still wont be hax cause it seems agresive always hits high agains monsters and never in pvp but maybe thats just me
Posted by: -Travis-- 6 Jul 2009, 22:30
On a poutch he crits 10xx.
*Travis
Posted by: zezimajr 6 Jul 2009, 23:31
I think that Sadidas (strength) do need another stable attack, but buffing aggressive bramble doesn't really seem like the way to do it.
Posted by: Mentor-III 7 Jul 2009, 01:39
*Travis
Hitting in the thousands on a zero res monster isnt really possible (I certainly cant think of a proper set), but it would be in a set that isnt particularly useful.
crit aggro brambes is 65 damage. With the ridiculous amount of 1100 strength, thats 715 damage. If the player has an awe inspiring additional 200% dam, thats a total of 910 damage. Throw in +90 dam, and thats in the thousands.
Cant even imagine a set that would give this though, maybe if someone went crazy and overmaged all the strength and %dam on everything... but you would lose a ring slot for the sadi class ring for +30 crits, and a turq sure would help as well as a very nice crimson. If a set like this was thought up and maged, it would probably be pretty useless - cant imagine much if any vitality, wisdom, and range coming along with a silly set like this thats only good for impressing people at a poutch.
I've personally seen a 700 and something aggro brambles, which seems about right in a set that gives enough ap, range, vit, wisdom, and crits.
Posted by: touchof 9 Jul 2009, 22:48
Just get your aggressive 1/2. And 9xx crit is the best I've seen, on -2% resist though, so call it 900
Posted by: Fraxinu 10 Jul 2009, 19:11
Iop>Sadida
Sacrier>Iop
Sram>Sacrier
Eca>Sram
...
and so it continues.
That, Aggressive brambles isn't very good until you can get it 1/2 Crits.
Posted by: touchof 11 Jul 2009, 21:00
I have it 1/2, yes. As are many of my spells, and my staff.