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Weapons and why they need something done with them., Im going to explain why weapons need to be nerfed
Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 29, 2012, 04:37:04 | #1
Weapons and why they need something done with them. Ok so this is very contriversel, But I feel something needs to be said. I am a koloer its my favorite part of Dofus, However lately its getting very repetative mainly due to everyone and I mean EVERYONE only using agi chars with agi daggers. 9/10 kolos go something like this (dag, dag CH!, dagCH!, dag, CH! dag, dag CH!) And people are never using spells other than skills, coop, invisability,flight,leap. I know its not my place to tell people how to play but really people its getting so boring seeing hardly anyone using anything other than their op 1/2crit agi maged dags.
This is just my opinion and Im sorry if I offended anyone with it but I am intitled to an opinion and thats just mine  


184
Ultimate-Panda (Solar)
Former Subscriber Piglet Milker
* Member Since 2009-10-28
posté November 29, 2012, 04:56:31 | #2
I agree and think that weapons (add another item slot to replace bonuses) or atleast the ability to attack with them should be removed.


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 29, 2012, 05:05:08 | #3
Some of the content in dofus has upwards of 20,000 hit points. Spells in their current state are too weak to kill something like that in a timely manner.

The average monster in Frigost 2 has at least 5000 to 6000 hit points as well, and some do adverse things if you hit them with spells.


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - November 29, 2012, 05:06:20.
Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 29, 2012, 06:23:46 | #4

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 29 November 2012 05:05) *
Some of the content in dofus has upwards of 20,000 hit points. Spells in their current state are too weak to kill something like that in a timely manner.

The average monster in Frigost 2 has at least 5000 to 6000 hit points as well, and some do adverse things if you hit them with spells.
I agree with you completly, On said topic however what I was refering too is pvp (player vs player) not pvm (player vs monster) Weapons no dought have a place in the game but I presonally dont think its in pvp/kolo. Even still some weapons arent that bad but dags that crit at 600 and can be used 4 times is hard to handle and takes almost all of the fun out of a match.


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 29, 2012, 06:39:33 | #5
I do agree that separate combat systems for PvP and PvM would be peachy, but sadly Ankama doesn't share our outlook.... yet.  


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - November 29, 2012, 06:40:39.
Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 29, 2012, 06:51:55 | #6

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 29 November 2012 06:39) *
I do agree that separate combat systems for PvP and PvM would be peachy, but sadly Ankama doesn't share our outlook.... yet.
I like the yet gives me hope for the future of dofus so did this update some of the changes will seriously balance some issues dont really think iops needed another buff but friction isnt that bad to deal with I would really like to see a new Eni class spell but thats a whole diffrent story  


Former Subscriber Kami Snowfoux Kuddler
* * * * * Member Since 2009-03-26
posté November 29, 2012, 14:02:27 | #7
And then sacs turn into the ultimate PvP monsters.


Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 29, 2012, 14:11:45 | #8

Quote (XehanordHeartless @ 29 November 2012 14:02) *
And then sacs turn into the ultimate PvP monsters.
You know what thats a really good point, But one class benefiting doesnt make the argument that weapons are far to over powerd invalid. I think there should be a nice low cap to the cast number such as 2. Nobody likes to be hit 4 times by a srams 1/2 daggers. The fact that they can go invisable and have 8mp then pop up out of no where and take a large majority of your hp is stupid and needs to be addressed its next to impossible to escape the "srams wrath"


This post has been edited by iamgrrr - November 29, 2012, 14:14:25.
199
Peeta (Dark Vlad)
wervelwind
Former Subscriber Lord Crow Flatterer
* * * * Member Since 2011-02-27
posté November 29, 2012, 17:14:34 | #9

Quote (iamgrrr @ 29 November 2012 14:11) *

Quote (XehanordHeartless @ 29 November 2012 14:02) *
And then sacs turn into the ultimate PvP monsters.
You know what thats a really good point, But one class benefiting doesnt make the argument that weapons are far to over powerd invalid. I think there should be a nice low cap to the cast number such as 2. Nobody likes to be hit 4 times by a srams 1/2 daggers. The fact that they can go invisable and have 8mp then pop up out of no where and take a large majority of your hp is stupid and needs to be addressed its next to impossible to escape the "srams wrath"
The ways to escape this are
mp boost yourself and run away (or as cra, summon chafer etc. and reape mp with paralyzing arrow)
hope they have a CF with the first time dagger and be lucky
try to find out where they are so you can push them away and reape there mp.
if you know that there are some traps near you, stand in the back of it to make sure the sram have to run futher.


Former Subscriber Mopy King Cleaner
* * * * Member Since 2011-02-10
posté November 29, 2012, 18:13:11 | #10
The only classes that can kill off sram's mp after that annoying invis/skill are enus with GS, Sadida, Osa's Wyrmling (if it sees it as enough of a threat i guess. mine unbew'd a 14/9 ecaflip in kolo one day since there were 2 on that team and a sram), and i'm not sure if roulette still has the ability to unbewitch, but if it does, then Ecaflip too. And yeah, i agree that weapons shouldn't be outdamaging spells at ANY point of Dofus. I have a friend with a 192 eni with a thrusty staff, and he hits down 1100 every other strike on just about everything with less than 30% fire resist, but only about 350-500 with 3 forbidden words (160-19x per hit).


Former Subscriber Kami Snowfoux Kuddler
* * * * * Member Since 2009-03-26
posté November 29, 2012, 18:37:06 | #11
I don't see why spells should hit more than weapons. They offer more utility be it either range,ap,no fatal critical hits,mp/ap lose,resists,damage buffs,map manipulation and others. I see weapons as a raw damage source.


This post has been edited by XehanordHeartless - November 29, 2012, 18:37:18.
Former Subscriber Mopy King Cleaner
* * * * Member Since 2011-02-10
posté November 29, 2012, 19:47:42 | #12
Sorry, I thought it out only after I made the post, allow me to re-phrase my voice: "I don't think weapons should be outdamaging spells by such a large margin throughout the buildup on the game." I understand wanting to have a better damage output against others as the health and resistances increase over time, but to ignore almost every spell you've worked on for only 1-3 spells just to make that weapon stronger and swing it around like a happy monkey?? I just don't see too much fun in fighting if that's all you're going to look forward to in later levels.


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 29, 2012, 20:44:13 | #13
You don't have to use weapons and nothing else. Each person has to make that decision on their own, over the long run I find weapons are just more efficient. If spells did more than I wouldn't use weapons as much.


Former Subscriber Grossewer Rat Washer
* * Member Since 2012-09-09
posté November 29, 2012, 20:46:11 | #14
When I read this, it seems to me that the key problems here is not, that daggers (or any weapon) is overpowered at the moment. But that the many other ways Dofus provides to win a battle seem to have no place in Kolosium PvP fights.

In general, I think to make combat more versatile, it is better to provide different ways of defeating the enemy than just the highest damage output. Or else, all you achieve is that Agi maged daggers will just be replaced by the next best thing to do (e.g. spamming the one spell that yield the most base damage).

I think, Dofus does an amazing job of providing several totally different approaches of defeating enemies in combat. There are AP/MP removal tactics, Healing and unrecoverable HP, Shielding and Damage Reduction (both - absolute and in %), Unavoidable damage like pushback and poison, and and and...

So maybe instead of simply bashing on the current best way, the other ways should be made move viable?


By the way.. for every single-action tactic, there seem to be quite potent counter-actions available in Dofus. Like reducing the enemies CH rate (Terror/Sword of Destruction), casting Weakness on him (Pandawasta) or just buff up Agi resistance to 50%. Maybe these counter-tactics are too scare at the moment and should be made more broadly available?


Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 29, 2012, 21:52:44 | #15

Quote (Cute-Fire @ 29 November 2012 17:14) *

Quote (iamgrrr @ 29 November 2012 14:11) *

Quote (XehanordHeartless @ 29 November 2012 14:02) *
And then sacs turn into the ultimate PvP monsters.
You know what thats a really good point, But one class benefiting doesnt make the argument that weapons are far to over powerd invalid. I think there should be a nice low cap to the cast number such as 2. Nobody likes to be hit 4 times by a srams 1/2 daggers. The fact that they can go invisable and have 8mp then pop up out of no where and take a large majority of your hp is stupid and needs to be addressed its next to impossible to escape the "srams wrath"
The ways to escape this are
mp boost yourself and run away (or as cra, summon chafer etc. and reape mp with paralyzing arrow)
hope they have a CF with the first time dagger and be lucky
try to find out where they are so you can push them away and reape there mp.
if you know that there are some traps near you, stand in the back of it to make sure the sram have to run futher.
You said try to find the sram which is the only way you can mp which is an option but very counter productive spamming a low action point spell sort of works at times but makes you miss those turns to buff. I understand what you are saying just dont think its as easy as you make it sound.


Quote (HatedOne @ 29 November 2012 19:47) *
Sorry, I thought it out only after I made the post, allow me to re-phrase my voice: "I don't think weapons should be outdamaging spells by such a large margin throughout the buildup on the game." I understand wanting to have a better damage output against others as the health and resistances increase over time, but to ignore almost every spell you've worked on for only 1-3 spells just to make that weapon stronger and swing it around like a happy monkey?? I just don't see too much fun in fighting if that's all you're going to look forward to in later levels.
Agreed I just dont think they should be able to hit so many times and need a crit cap or either one alone would work fine.


Quote (MamoChiba @ 29 November 2012 20:46) *
When I read this, it seems to me that the key problems here is not, that daggers (or any weapon) is overpowered at the moment. But that the many other ways Dofus provides to win a battle seem to have no place in Kolosium PvP fights.

In general, I think to make combat more versatile, it is better to provide different ways of defeating the enemy than just the highest damage output. Or else, all you achieve is that Agi maged daggers will just be replaced by the next best thing to do (e.g. spamming the one spell that yield the most base damage).

I think, Dofus does an amazing job of providing several totally different approaches of defeating enemies in combat. There are AP/MP removal tactics, Healing and unrecoverable HP, Shielding and Damage Reduction (both - absolute and in %), Unavoidable damage like pushback and poison, and and and...

So maybe instead of simply bashing on the current best way, the other ways should be made move viable?


By the way.. for every single-action tactic, there seem to be quite potent counter-actions available in Dofus. Like reducing the enemies CH rate (Terror/Sword of Destruction), casting Weakness on him (Pandawasta) or just buff up Agi resistance to 50%. Maybe these counter-tactics are too scare at the moment and should be made more broadly available?
Most spells that can do that much damage have A.) a higher action point cost or B.) a cap on how many cast per turn/per target/cooldown


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 29, 2012, 22:00:05 | #16
I would just like to point out that trying to nerf an entire faucet of the game just because one class abuses it with one type of weapon is a bit silly.


Former Subscriber Grossewer Rat Washer
* * Member Since 2011-11-14
posté November 29, 2012, 22:05:05 | #17

Quote (HatedOne @ 29 November 2012 19:47) *
Sorry, I thought it out only after I made the post, allow me to re-phrase my voice: "I don't think weapons should be outdamaging spells by such a large margin throughout the buildup on the game." I understand wanting to have a better damage output against others as the health and resistances increase over time, but to ignore almost every spell you've worked on for only 1-3 spells just to make that weapon stronger and swing it around like a happy monkey?? I just don't see too much fun in fighting if that's all you're going to look forward to in later levels.
For next time, there's always an 'edit' button on your posts... Just saying.


Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 30, 2012, 01:41:31 | #18

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 29 November 2012 22:00) *
I would just like to point out that trying to nerf an entire faucet of the game just because one class abuses it with one type of weapon is a bit silly.
Just my main example and the main abuse plenty of characters do it srams just happen to be the most annoying and most abusive


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 30, 2012, 02:35:42 | #19
If you got this changed, then people will find something else to abuse, and you will be right back where you started. That is exactly what happened every time things like this were changed in the past to make someone, or multiple someones, who got killed in a PvP fight by someone with better gear feel better. Nothing personal against you, I have just seen this too many times to think it will end any differently.


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - November 30, 2012, 02:49:58.
Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté November 30, 2012, 04:48:53 | #20

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 02:35) *
If you got this changed, then people will find something else to abuse, and you will be right back where you started. That is exactly what happened every time things like this were changed in the past to make someone, or multiple someones, who got killed in a PvP fight by someone with better gear feel better. Nothing personal against you, I have just seen this too many times to think it will end any differently.
No hard feeling didnt bring them with me lol. You're more than likely right. Guess I could just wait till dragon pig and soft oak stop being jewish toward me and give me turq and join the club. :/ I'm kidding I would never think of contributing to this madness


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 30, 2012, 05:26:43 | #21
Don't bother with Soft Oak. Gather 20 or 30 DP souls and ask someone who runs 7 or 8 with a pp team to help you do them. That is the easiest way to get a turq.


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - November 30, 2012, 05:27:01.
200
Mask-masque (Zatoishwan)
Avarice
Subscriber Great Coralator Polisher
* * * Member Since 2011-03-14
posté November 30, 2012, 08:21:28 | #22

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 02:35) *
If you got this changed, then people will find something else to abuse, and you will be right back where you started. That is exactly what happened every time things like this were changed in the past to make someone, or multiple someones, who got killed in a PvP fight by someone with better gear feel better. Nothing personal against you, I have just seen this too many times to think it will end any differently.
Example of this : strengthstorm used to be 3 casts per target now 2, because in PvP lots of people complained even though this wasn't really OP.


Subscriber Boowolf Squisher
* * Member Since 2012-09-19
posté November 30, 2012, 14:08:47 | #23

Quote (2bytwo @ 30 November 2012 08:21) *

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 02:35) *
If you got this changed, then people will find something else to abuse, and you will be right back where you started. That is exactly what happened every time things like this were changed in the past to make someone, or multiple someones, who got killed in a PvP fight by someone with better gear feel better. Nothing personal against you, I have just seen this too many times to think it will end any differently.
Example of this : strengthstorm used to be 3 casts per target now 2, because in PvP lots of people complained even though this wasn't really OP.
for a small level range i found it to be very powerful to borderline op but at the levels continued i found the dmg to slowly seems less op.

about weapons and srams i find their combo to be.. very strong to say the least. after invisability the are well invisable and harder to find plus they get 2 mp. their natural weapon is dagger which takeing all their spells and their weapon of choice (daggers if you weren't reading) makes this char extreamly preferable to pvp. srams wouldn't be so hard for people to counter if there was a slight change to invisability. mabye make it so there are more ways to uncloak the sram? or mabye makeing it so invisability gives a debuff to resisting ap and mp stealing for the dureation of the invis+2 turns? im honestly not good at makeing ideas on how to change stuff. im not the person wanting to change stuff because I dont complain about a character type being strong I just find someone that uses that char type and learn from them/practice on ways to beat them. if i had to change 1 thing about srams I would say makeing traps have a LoS unless they are cloaked.


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté November 30, 2012, 19:30:48 | #24
Invisibility state causes a state of weakness as well that lasts until the mp runs out. Problem solved.


Former Subscriber Mopy King Cleaner
* * * * Member Since 2011-02-10
posté December 01, 2012, 08:14:41 | #25
The people who abuse daggers fall more in line of Sram, Sacrier, Eniripsa (sometimes, others with staffs), Feca (yes I've seen this too), Iop, Ecaflip (for whatever reason), Osamodas (an old guild mate used to hit annoying damage with this during perceptor defense), Panda (rarely seen, but I've seen this on 3 occasions), and the occasional Sadida (i don't get why they do this when staffs hit harder for a simple 2 extra AP per strike). And out of all of these, they all hit roughly similar damage with this one weapon than most other weapons, maybe excluding sunshade and the other, Sram hitting higher by a significant margin of course. But all-in-all, I'm still saying spell damages should be increased to make a more versatile game play than just "weapon skill, critical/damage skill, any other buff, and spam away for 800-1300 per hit.


191
Farsight (Rosal)
Subscriber Tofu Stroker
* Member Since 2008-08-13
posté December 03, 2012, 06:35:22 | #26
It seems that the purpose of this thread is to nerf weapons, I completely disagree. As someone who has been one turned by a monster with 1/2 daggers I know how bad it can be. But for everything in Dofus there are hard counters. If you see a Sram be prepared to run and focus him down at range, the ones who seem to die the most in close combat are the people who charge right into them like sheep. Play smart and you can avoid a lot of the instant deaths everybody seems to be describing. Yes it's obvious close combat hurts, but that is sort of the point. People devote entire builds to getting in close and smashing you to pieces, so naturally you should keep them at a distance. Or at the very least do something to prevent the close combat from landing maximum damage. When it comes to Kolo (everybody's favorite form of xp) a single Sram won't win a fight with close combat just because he's invisible. Yes they can easily turn the tide, but what class can't if played properly? I don't think the weapons are the problem, Dofus is a turn based strategy game, so play it like one. If you've got a class notorious for high damage at short range, keep them away. Think about winning, not rushing in for max damage then dying after. You'll never be able to win all the time, but blaming losses solely because one person cc'd your whole team to death just tells me you didn't play very well.

On a side note, yes everybody is entitled to their own opinions and I don't mean to argue or disprove anybody's in any way shape or form. Arguments are dumb, Cheers!


Former Subscriber Dreggon Breaker
* * Member Since 2008-07-15
posté December 04, 2012, 01:34:56 | #27

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 19:30) *
Invisibility state causes a state of weakness as well that lasts until the mp runs out. Problem solved.
~Support this post, even though the bread and butter of my team is my Sram.

Sorry, I can't agree with the entire post though. Slapping an Oto Sword on my Eni has dug me out of many sticky situations in the past. And reading the topic, i'm not sure if this is about Daggers or Kolo balancing, but I assure you they won't nerf one weapon for Kolo specific reasons. If this is about Daggers on a Sram, I use a 12/6 Sunshade build on my Sram personally...

Going off of the title of this topic and assuming about its weapons in general, I can't support this. I've seen you around Solar, and not to be prejudice by level, but when you get into the 190+ range, especially on a non Iop/Eca/Sram, you rely on weapons. Take Srams for an example. Standard base stats are 10 Ap base, 12 with the Ochre/Exo combo or Stim Wound. Fighting a monster with 1.5k Vit left, Lethal Attack, Lethal Attack... then oh crap, you realize you can only cast it twice per turn. As the Ap goes up, you have more ability to manipulate your Ap, meaning if you want to full tank, you need something to fill the Ap gaps. With other classes, they simply don't have the ability to tank, yet during harder dungeons its needed for these characters to be able to do atleast sustainable damage.

~Random & Jki Inc.


199
Yackul (Rushu)
Myth
Former Subscriber N Devestor
* * * * * Member Since 2006-07-11
posté December 04, 2012, 09:00:37 | #28

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 19:30) *
Invisibility state causes a state of weakness as well that lasts until the mp runs out. Problem solved.


This seems like a good idea.


*Travis


Former Subscriber Grossewer Rat Washer
* * Member Since 2012-09-09
posté December 04, 2012, 09:43:28 | #29
Another thing which I really dislike about weapons in general (and which has been mentioned before a lot):

It makes everyone the same. Any other MMORPG has a huge gap in damage output between the protector/healer class and the damage dealer class. Usually, this is a factor of at least 3 times less damage for the healer.

Not so in Dofus. An Eniripsa can hit almost as hard as an Iop. Not with spells, of course. But she just needs a good weapon. That makes every class similar to each other and kills diversity.


This post has been edited by MamoChiba - December 04, 2012, 09:43:48.
Former Subscriber Dreggon Breaker
* * Member Since 2008-07-15
posté December 04, 2012, 23:26:43 | #30

Quote (MamoChiba @ 04 December 2012 09:43) *
Another thing which I really dislike about weapons in general (and which has been mentioned before a lot):

It makes everyone the same. Any other MMORPG has a huge gap in damage output between the protector/healer class and the damage dealer class. Usually, this is a factor of at least 3 times less damage for the healer.

Not so in Dofus. An Eniripsa can hit almost as hard as an Iop. Not with spells, of course. But she just needs a good weapon. That makes every class similar to each other and kills diversity.
I disagree with both statements. First off, Iops can hit far above Enis due to the fact that they're build around close combat, so they can buff themselfs and set up the close combat better. Second, the characters are diverse because not only do you use a different weapon to suit the points you feel necessary on that character, you use your weapon in balance with your spells to have the maximum efficiency in fights, whether it be setting up the close combat in which weapons are used, setting up the AoE to go in correspondence with your AoE weapon, or getting them the hell away to ping them with your bow/wand.

~Random & Jki Inc.


Subscriber Mopy King Cleaner
* * * * Member Since 2008-05-24
posté December 04, 2012, 23:58:00 | #31

Quote (MamoChiba @ 04 December 2012 09:43) *
Another thing which I really dislike about weapons in general (and which has been mentioned before a lot):

It makes everyone the same. Any other MMORPG has a huge gap in damage output between the protector/healer class and the damage dealer class. Usually, this is a factor of at least 3 times less damage for the healer.

Not so in Dofus. An Eniripsa can hit almost as hard as an Iop. Not with spells, of course. But she just needs a good weapon. That makes every class similar to each other and kills diversity.
I have yet to see a eni swing around a sword hitting 1.9k a swing on a critical hit.


Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 19:30) *
Invisibility state causes a state of weakness as well that lasts until the mp runs out. Problem solved.
What will I do in pvm? Con the mobs to death?


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté December 05, 2012, 00:25:52 | #32

Quote (greekg @ 04 December 2012 23:58) *

Quote (Revil-Nunor @ 30 November 2012 19:30) *
Invisibility state causes a state of weakness as well that lasts until the mp runs out. Problem solved.
What will I do in pvm? Con the mobs to death?
The other option is to have the mp go away once you become visible. Keeping +2 mp for a full 6 turns no matter what is a broken tactic that shouldn't be.


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - December 05, 2012, 00:26:52.
Subscriber Arachnophobe
* Member Since 2012-09-22
posté December 14, 2012, 15:47:36 | #33
I have been thinking about this alot and reading comments alot of good points have been made. However I see the reoccuring "pvm you need weapons" I was speaking from a pvp standpoint yes weapons help greatly pvm but thats where it needs to end maybe putting in a dmg reduction on close combat per lvl of a player that would not apply to monsters just players (sorta like fecas sheilds but less powerful) would tip the tide. Im not trying to hate on anyones build or class with this post it just seems the more I play the less fun it is everyone is doing the same thing. Its kinda like watching a really good movie, At first you love it ....after 120 times of watching it you get kinda sick to death of it, Thats how Im personally feeling about Dofus at this point. Way to repetative.


Unofficial Forum Answer Bot Count Harebourg Clocker
* * * * * * Member Since 2006-02-21
posté December 14, 2012, 18:44:56 | #34
Take a break for a little while then and recharge your enthusiasm.


This post has been edited by Revil-Nunor - December 14, 2012, 18:45:24.